tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7072349965739940389.post2881274039175337076..comments2011-04-26T16:13:51.470-05:00Comments on Be the Change: Love Wins: God is Bigger than the Boogeyman.Diannahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06993039165090051502noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7072349965739940389.post-40164440243214005422011-04-11T19:37:03.744-05:002011-04-11T19:37:03.744-05:00noneuclidean, my initial comment was primarily abo...noneuclidean, my initial comment was primarily about alternate views of an afterlife. Rob Bell has never claimed to be a mystic, but is open to contemplative prayer and meditation. While not a Universalist, he does respect people of other religions.<br /><br />Even within Christianity there are differing views of afterlife between Protestants, Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Mormons, etc. In any discussion between people, there will be varying personal opinions and interpretations of scriptures. Most mystics, of any faith, would agree with Jesus: "The Kingdom of Heaven is within." If you want to find Hell just read, watch or listen to the daily news or study the unkind history of humankind.Ron Krumposhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05371279514024960026noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7072349965739940389.post-74490880562341637522011-04-01T01:22:45.484-05:002011-04-01T01:22:45.484-05:00Dianna,
I LOVE this: "We are not saved from ...Dianna,<br /><br />I LOVE this: "We are not saved from Hell. We are saved to Heaven." <br /><br />We have been on the Lewis brainwave a couple of times over at MPT's blog. I've been talking about many of these same things over on my blog. <br /><br />I can't help but wonder if people in another couple of decades will look back on "Love Wins" they way we do with "The Great Divorce?" I doubt Piper would glibly dismiss Lewis but wonder if any of Lewis' contemporaries dismissed him? Or is some of the controversy a byproduct of our unique brand of American evangelicalism -and it's hero worship tendencies- combined with the ability to instantly communicate knee-jerk reactions via blogs, Twitter, etc...<br /><br />Ironically, I think sometimes our expanding ability to communicate actually makes us less discerning with what we say. <br /><br />Thanks for a great blog post! I now feel the urge to pick up more Lewis and dig deeper than I have already!Sean R Reidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09695212453623002857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7072349965739940389.post-49952147946265941412011-03-31T13:44:16.553-05:002011-03-31T13:44:16.553-05:00I followed you over here from MPT's blog. Love...I followed you over here from MPT's blog. Love your post. Very eloquent.S.Z.B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/01237269730816170413noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7072349965739940389.post-55314003771384439112011-03-28T08:24:47.228-05:002011-03-28T08:24:47.228-05:00Diana,
Liked the post and the connection with Lew...Diana,<br /><br />Liked the post and the connection with Lewis. <br /><br />I like using traditional concepts of Heaven and Hell as metaphors for realities in this life. In my mind there is no good evidence that warrants belief in an afterlife. Whatever happens after we die is a complete mystery that goes beyond what any holy book or spiritual experience can pretend to tell us. Rob Bell and Lewis may not complete agree with me here, but at least they realize that Heaven and Hell are best understood as being intertwined with our present existence. <br /><br />You said: "That is the God I speak of. My God doesn't "test me" to see if I'm getting it right and, if I'm not, sits back and wags his eternal finger over the button that sends me to a fate worse than death. My God calls me to participate in a loving, graceful, beautiful world with him, one which will be a fuller experience of a more real world, regardless of whether or not a Hell exists eternally."<br /><br />It is about time that Christians start voicing this kind of stuff. Many thoughtful Christians for centuries have rejected the God who assigns people to eternal torment, yet these thoughts have not been adequately voiced by the lay people in the church. If there ever was a Christ-like position on the traditional view of hell as eternal torment for the unbeliever, it is one that completely and publicly rejects it. This book is pretty bold on this issue given the present state of American Christianity, but it shouldn't be seen as bold. It should be seen as an exercise in stating the obvious. People should be wondering why he even bothers challenging such a pathetic and twisted view in the first place. But because much of the church has its identity wrapped up in being saved from this twisted God, this book is necessary and important.blannphinellahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11407777722151988701noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7072349965739940389.post-46462068754119724272011-03-27T20:34:20.810-05:002011-03-27T20:34:20.810-05:00Well Ron, you certainly have not helped defend Bel...Well Ron, you certainly have not helped defend Bell against charges of heresy.noneuclideanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00401446537047753731noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7072349965739940389.post-7944122520886003002011-03-27T17:29:56.577-05:002011-03-27T17:29:56.577-05:00Which Afterlife?
In his new book "Love Wins&...Which Afterlife?<br /><br />In his new book "Love Wins" Rob Bell seems to say that loving and compassionate people, regardless of their faith, will not be condemned to eternal hell just because they do not accept Jesus Christ as their Savior. <br /><br />Concepts of an afterlife vary between religions and among divisions of each faith. Here are three quotes from "the greatest achievement in life," my ebook on comparative mysticism:<br /><br />(46) Few people have been so good that they have earned eternal paradise; fewer want to go to a place where they must receive punishments for their sins. Those who do believe in resurrection of their body hope that it will be not be in its final form. Few people really want to continue to be born again and live more human lives; fewer want to be reborn in a non-human form. If you are not quite certain you want to seek divine union, consider the alternatives.<br /><br />(59) Mysticism is the great quest for the ultimate ground of existence, the absolute nature of being itself. True mystics transcend apparent manifestations of the theatrical production called “this life.” Theirs is not simply a search for meaning, but discovery of what is, i.e. the Real underlying the seeming realities. Their objective is not heaven, gardens, paradise, or other celestial places. It is not being where the divine lives, but to be what the divine essence is here and now.<br /><br />(80) [referring to many non-mystics] Depending on their religious convictions, or personal beliefs, they may be born again to seek elusive perfection, go to a purgatory to work out their sins or, perhaps, pass on into oblivion. Lives are different; why not afterlives? Beliefs might become true.<br /><br />Rob Bell asks us to reexamine the Christian Gospel. People of all faiths should look beyond the letter of their sacred scriptures to their spiritual message. As one of my mentors wrote "In God we all meet."Ron Krumposhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05371279514024960026noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7072349965739940389.post-3172846334751306242011-03-27T14:57:45.029-05:002011-03-27T14:57:45.029-05:00Awesome. I agree with you about the importance of ...Awesome. I agree with you about the importance of putting Hell in its right place. I disagree with quite a few of Bell and Lewis's other points, but I certainly agree that using hell is a primary tool of evangelism is unhelpful and generally harmful.<br /><br />I wonder to what extent Bell is responding to a conception of hell found in extreme fundamentalism, the "turn or burn" mentality. It just seems to me that there is a fairly respectable middle way between Bell's view and the turn or burn view that needs to be reckoned with in this discussion.noneuclideanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00401446537047753731noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7072349965739940389.post-88259677126024397772011-03-27T14:56:57.815-05:002011-03-27T14:56:57.815-05:00"Our theology has become sin-focused and Hell..."Our theology has become sin-focused and Hell-focused, when it was never meant to be. We are concentrating more on the fate we are saved from than what we are saved to." <br /><br />Amen, lady. I've been noticing this with Christians lately and it frustrates me. Of course it's important to recognize and avoid sinning, but it shouldn't be the focus of everything you do - i've also noticed a significant problem with people confusing 'sin' with 'human nature'.<br /><br />I've also always wondered about the Calormene at the end of The Last Battle, and i had debated placing that theology in the heresy pile. But it's good to read your opinion on it and reopen myself up for that contemplation.<br /><br />I seriously appreciate this because I respect you and your perspectives on theological matters. I knew Bell was going to challenge and stretch our perceptions of heaven and hell - and it is controversial! There's no denying that. But let's be honest, I don't know what heaven or hell is, 1 Peter 3 and 4 say Jesus went down to hell and preached to those who had disobeyed God so that they could still live in the spirit. I'm so limited and i have no way of understanding a limitless God, but i'm glad for it - if i understood a god then there'd be no reason to worship it.<br /><br />Let's get coffee.Marenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14360421332642053412noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7072349965739940389.post-89618140248422341582011-03-27T14:45:20.670-05:002011-03-27T14:45:20.670-05:00Hey Alan! Thanks for commenting!
I carefully avoi...Hey Alan! Thanks for commenting!<br /><br />I carefully avoided a lot of the description of discussing those specific questions because Bell does a lot of that in his book - which is why I didn't cover a lot of that here. And you're right in that there is a time and place for discussing Hell because it is important to understand what this separation from God means. But what Bell proposes (and what I mostly agree with) is that Hell is not some "otherwhere." It's not some place that we'll go to when we die - it starts now, and as the result of sin, we have all sorts of suffering in the world. We create our own Hell, which we get to continue living in post-death. But, what's "revolutionary" about Bell (and Lewis, in my contention), is that he proposes God's call doesn't end at our death (which, in turn, stops us from being the sole actors in the conversation).<br /><br />When it comes to talking to your neighbor, what is important is that they see the love of God before they see the fear of hell. And that's really my point. Hell can and does have a place, but we need to shove it back into its right place. Rather than being the people on the street corner holding signs that say "Turn or Burn," we need to be the people serving in the soup line, saying "This is the love I have. Come join me." And eventually, Hell can become a discussion point. But it's not the selling point. And that's mainly my beef with modern day evangelism (I'm thinking of The Way of the Master in particular here) - we use safety from Hell as a selling point, and not living and experiencing a deeper, greater, more amazing love as what really should be a selling point.<br /><br />I hope that makes sense. Again, like Bell, I wanted this to be a starting point for discussion. I would suggest reading Bell's book for yourself, but he responds to a lot of these objections, and his main response is: "We don't really know. You don't know. And neither do I. So we need to leave room for the possibility that Hell is not the terrifying place that fundies say it is.<br /><br />And you're right: The testing thing isn't fair, but that's a clobber verse I really hate. The way it's often used makes it sound like God is sitting there waiting for me to mess up, which I know is not really the case, but it's how it's been presented to me throughout my life, and it's a really hard image to shake.<br /><br />Elise and Jared: I'm glad you liked it. As I said, the Lewis connections were obvious, and I knew that was the case when I read the acknowledgments and Bell thanked someone for making him read Lewis in high school. :) The book itself is a really refreshing reminder of how truly BIG God is.Diannahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06993039165090051502noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7072349965739940389.post-65842597788067777172011-03-27T14:12:52.353-05:002011-03-27T14:12:52.353-05:00Love it. Great job with all of the Lewis connectio...Love it. Great job with all of the Lewis connections. I think I'll sprinkle this around through some of the "Love Wins" discussions I've been having on Facebook. :)Jaredhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08458850332077355075noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7072349965739940389.post-59149677071342710192011-03-27T14:11:09.903-05:002011-03-27T14:11:09.903-05:00Thank you, Dianna, for such an eloquent, thoughtfu...Thank you, Dianna, for such an eloquent, thoughtful post. I have read the works referenced here and you quoted many passages dear and delightful to me. Admittedly, until now I had no desire to read Bell's book - having watched it cut through recent conversations and facebook comments. However, the firm gentleness of this post and my love for the Lewis quotes makes me feel far less averse to picking up Bell's writing. I like the idea of viewing his book like a large, rhetorical question (or questions) instead of a treatise. This puts an emphasis on the pull towards thought, instead of argumentation. It is always good for me to re-examine my perception of Love: so often, my own view is shrinking into something puny and narrow, instead of growing toward the magnificent Love of the Almighty.<br /><br />Gratefully Yours, EliseAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7072349965739940389.post-89123068339131281032011-03-27T14:09:42.306-05:002011-03-27T14:09:42.306-05:00good connections to Lewis. I love Lewis, but I oft...good connections to Lewis. I love Lewis, but I often disagree with him. Just a couple of thoughts:<br /><br />You suggest that when we love our neighbor we should not tell her about hell or eternal punishment but rather about God's love. I certainly agree if you are talking about emphasis; the world desperately needs to understand God's loving grace. However, I still think there is a time and a place to share with that neighbor the reality of hell also. If you don't think we should be concerned with hell, what do you do with the numerous passages where Jesus talks about hell, or at very least the place of torment or a state of mind that we choose (I'm much less interested in the discussion of what hell is "like" than the fact that it exists, it matters, and it is eternal.). Take just for one example Matthew 25 and the parable of the talents. Jesus tells us that the unprofitable servant was to be cast out into the outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.<br /><br />Again, I'm not saying that this is necessarily describing an eternal torment or that this is even necessarily a description of hell (although I believe that both are true). My point is that throughout his ministries, Jesus warned that those who rejected him would be punished. Which suggests to me that hell does have a place in apologetics, although I would quickly and ardently add that the vast majority of the time when hell is used in apologetics in American churches it is unhelpful and unloving. So, I suppose my question is this: if you think that we should not be concerned with telling our neighbor about hell, why do you think that Jesus told many people on many occasions about hell, or at the very least about the punishment of rejecting him?<br /><br />My other concern was with the way you presented the view of hell as literal (whatever that means) and eternal:<br /><br />"My God doesn't 'test me' to see if I'm getting it right and, if I'm not, sits back and wags his eternal finger over the button that sends me to a fate worse than death."<br /><br />It seems to me that you are presenting a very shallow and horrible version of the "conservative" view of hell, much in the same way that many critics uncharitably responded to Rob Bell's book. If we are to ever have any meaningful dialogue in the church about important doctrines like heaven and hell we need to admit that people who hold different views than our own might have intelligent and logical and loving reasons for holding those views. As much as many people might dislike the "conservative" view of hell, the reality is that many wise, loving, intelligent, studious people have accepted and defended this view, which doesn't make them right necessarily, but it does mean that they deserve a better representation of their belief than the image of a "bastard dictator" wagging his eternal finger at us.<br /><br />anyway, good post<br />– Alannoneuclideanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00401446537047753731noreply@blogger.com